SPEAKER_01 0:19

Welcome to Stay Lit. I'm Cambria Shaw.

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And I'm Miles Ellison.

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And this is our series where we uh well we explore English literature, short stories, poems, plays, that kind of thing.

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Yeah, we dive deep. And today we're tackling a really famous one, Roger Kipling's If.

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Ah, if published way back in 1910, but still so resonant.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Definitely. And Kipling himself, I mean, a huge figure. Nobel Prize winner in 1907, uh, gave us the jungle book in 1894, which people obviously still love.

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Right. But if has this special place, doesn't it? Often called one of Britain's favorite poems. It's got this um inspirational quality, loads of life lessons packed in there.

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Totally. Integrity, resilience, humility. It's all in there.

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And the structure itself is pretty neat when you look at it. Four stanzas.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yep, four stanzas, eight lines each.

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Yeah.

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Very regular. And it mostly follows this uh A, B, C, D, C, D rhyme scheme.

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Mostly.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Well, the first stance is a bit different, A, A, B, C, C. But after that, it settles down. Plus, it's all in iambic pentameter.

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Which gives it that that sort of steady walking pace almost.

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Exactly. And the other really noticeable thing is how many lines start with if.

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Oh, yeah.

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Loads of them. It just builds and builds, condition after condition, all leading up to the big then at the very end.

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Aaron Powell And the whole thing is just one long sentence, right?

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Yeah, remarkably. Which really pulls you through it. You know, it feels like one continuous thought.

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Aaron Powell Okay, so let's get into that thought. What's the um the big idea behind if? What's Kipling really saying?

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Aaron Powell Well, fundamentally it's advice, isn't it? It's a guide on how to live your life, how to uh rise above things, keep your cool when everything's going wrong.

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Aaron Powell Like a set of instructions for being a good person.

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Aaron Ross Powell Pretty much. It's very didactic, very much like teaching a lesson. And we know Kipling wrote it with his son John in mind.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Ah, right. So it's literally paternal advice of a father telling his son how to be, well, the ideal man, at least in that Victorian sense.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Aaron Ross Powell Exactly that. It spells out the qualities Kipling valued for, you know, real character. But it's interesting. While it starts personal, it definitely speaks more broadly.

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Aaron Ross Powell So becoming a man with that capital M at the end, it's not just for his son.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Aaron Ross Powell No, I think it allows for interpretation. Readers can connect with those ideals, whatever being a man means to them. Or maybe just being a complete person. Aaron Powell Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Let's think about the time it was written. You said published 1910, but written earlier.

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Aaron Powell Yeah, much earlier, actually. He wrote it around 1895. It only got published later in uh Rewards and Fairies.

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1895. So firmly in the Victorian era, does that context shape it?

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Aaron Ross Powell Well, absolutely. You can really feel the influence of um Victorian stoicism. That whole emphasis on self-discipline, keeping emotions in check, making every second count.

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Aaron Powell The stiff upper lip kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Kind of, yeah. But maybe deeper than just suppressing emotion. It's about inner control, self-reliance.

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Aaron Powell And wasn't there a specific event, like a real-life inspiration?

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Yes, there was. It was apparently inspired by Leander Starr Jameson.

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Who was he?

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He led the Jameson Raid, which uh, well, it failed pretty spectacularly, but Kipling was apparently really struck by Jameson's conduct, his um grit and tenacity during the whole mess.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Ah. So it's about that ability to keep going even when you fail.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Exactly. That spirit in the face of disaster seems to be what sparked the poem.

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Okay, let's look at the first stanza. If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, powerful start.

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It really is. That immediate call for calm in chaos. It's like rule number one: don't panic, don't get swept up in blame.

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Very Victorian ideal, right?

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Imposure.

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Absolutely. Maintaining rationality when everyone else is losing it. That's inner strength.

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Then it goes. If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too. That's a tricky balance.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

It really is. It's not just blind self-belief. It's um trust yourself, yes, but also be open enough to consider why others might doubt you. Listen to criticism, perhaps.

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So self-confidence, but with humility.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Exactly. Acknowledging doubt without being defined by it. It's quite nuanced.

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And the stanza wraps up with uh if you can wait and not be tired by waiting, or being lied about, don't deal in lies, or being hated, don't give way to hating. Mm-hmm. Patience integrity, refusing to stoop to others' levels.

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And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise. Don't show off, basically.

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Yeah, exactly. There's a warning against righteousness or appearing superior. Be virtuous, but be humble about it. Quiet strength again.

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Okay, moving to stanza two. If you can dream and not make dreams your master, if you can think and not make thoughts your aim, what's he getting at there?

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It's about using your imagination and your intellect, which are great, but not letting them take over completely.

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Like don't get lost in your own head.

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Sort of. Dream, think, but stay grounded in reality. Don't let abstract thoughts or ambitions become the only thing that matters. Keep perspective.

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Right. Then we get those famous lines If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same. Imposters, that's a strong word.

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It really is. It suggests that both winning and losing are, in a way, illusions or temporary states.

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They aren't the real you.

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Exactly. They're fleeting. Don't get too carried away by success, don't be crushed by failure. They're impostors because they try to define you, but they shouldn't. It's about maintaining equilibrium.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

That makes sense. And the end of the stanza, if you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves, or watch the things you gave your life to broken and stoop and build them up with worn-out tools.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Wow. Yeah, that's tough stuff. It speaks to resilience, doesn't it? Being able to handle your words being manipulated, seeing your life's work destroyed.

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And then having the grit to start again, even when you feel exhausted and have nothing left.

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Exactly. Worn out tools. Yeah. It's about sheer perseverance.

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Okay, stanza three. This one starts with a big risk. If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch and toss.

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Yeah, bold move.

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And lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss, that's about accepting failure gracefully.

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Gracefully and completely. Not just taking risks, but handling the potential fallout without complaint or bitterness. Just picking yourself up and starting over. No fuss.

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It's a very stoic kind of resilience.

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Definitely. And then comes maybe the most powerful part for me. If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew to serve your turn long after they are gone.

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Pushing past your limits.

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And so hold on when there is nothing in you except the will, which says to them, hold on.

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And will is capitalized there. That feels important.

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Very.

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Yeah.

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It elevates willpower to this almost like independent force within you. When everything else is gone, your energy, your hope, maybe there's this core will that keeps you going, pure mental fortitude.

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Incredible imagery. Okay, final stanza. We're getting close to the then. But first, if you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings, nor lose the common touch.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Ah, the social tightrope.

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Right. Staying true to yourself no matter who you're with, high or low society.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Exactly. Don't get corrupted by power or status, walk with kings, but also don't become aloof or lose connection with ordinary people, talk with crowds. Maintain integrity and humility across the board.

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Then, if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, if all men count with you, but none too much. What's that about? Emotional independence.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah, I think so. It's about having a strong inner center, so you're not overly dependent on praise or crushed by criticism, even from those closest to you.

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Value people, but don't let them destabilize you.

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Kind of. Don't put anyone on too high a pedestal, maybe. Maintain a certain emotional balance in relationships.

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Okay. And the last if before the big reveal, if you can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds worth of distance run.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

The unforgiving minute, great phrase.

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Really captures how relentless time is, doesn't it?

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It does. It's a call to action. Use every single second. Live intensely, purposefully, don't waste time because it won't wait for you.

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And then, after all that, then comes the payoff.

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Yours is the earth and everything that's in it.

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So worldly success.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Well, yes, that's part of it. Mastery, perhaps. But then he adds.

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And which is more, you'll be a man, my son.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Right. And that which is more is crucial. Being this ideal man, achieving this state of character, is presented as even greater than possessing the whole world. It's about inner attainment.

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Aaron Powell So let's pull back and look at the themes. Masculinity is obviously a big one, right? With that final line.

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Aaron Powell Definitely central. The poem lays out a very specific model of manhood strength, self-control, perseverance, stoicism.

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Aaron Powell Which, you know, makes you think about how that lands today. How do we view those ideals of masculinity now?

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Aaron Ross Powell That's a really important conversation, isn't it? Some qualities, like resilience, are still valued, of course, but our understanding of masculinity is uh broader now, perhaps more complex. It's interesting to compare Kipling's version with contemporary views.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Aaron Powell For sure. And the theme of success and defeat handling those impostors.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Aaron Powell Yeah, that feels timeless. The idea that true character is shown not just in winning, but in how you handle both the highs and the lows with uh equanimity.

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Aaron Powell Maintaining that balance.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Exactly.

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And Kipling uses some cool literary tricks to get the message across. We mentioned the anaphor, the repetition of if.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Right. Which really builds the momentum. And lots of antithesis, those opposing ideas.

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Trevor Burrus Like wait and not be tired by waiting or being lied about, don't deal in lies. Trevor Burrus Yeah.

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Constantly showing the need for balance, finding the middle ground between extremes.

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Aaron Powell We also saw personification with triumph and disaster.

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Mm-hmm. Enjamin, keeping that single sentence flowing.

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Aaron Powell And that great metaphor, the unforgiving minute.

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Aaron Powell All working together. And it it's worth noting again how he speaks directly to you, the reader. It feels very personal, almost like he could be giving himself this advice too.

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Aaron Powell So the moral code here is all about moderation, composure, self-control.

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Trevor Burrus Integrity, humility. Keeping that stiff upper lip, maybe, but in a deeper sense of inner steadiness.

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Holding it together no matter what.

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That's the core message, really.

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Aaron Powell So the big question then, this was written, what, over 120 years ago now? Does this advice, this Victorian ideal, still hold up? Is it relevant for us today?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

That is the question, isn't it? And uh I think parts of it absolutely do. The language, the specific focus on manhood might feel a bit dated to some. But the underlying ideas, resilience in the face of setbacks, integrity, staying calm under pressure, uh humility, making the most of your time.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Aaron Powell Those seem pretty timeless.

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Aaron Powell I'd say so. Arguably, in our, you know, very fast-paced, often chaotic modern world, having that kind of inner grounding might be more important than ever.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Hmm. That's a great point. So this deep dive, it really highlights how if works on multiple levels, its history, its structure, and this powerful, enduring message about how to navigate life.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Definitely encourages you to go back and read it again with all that in mind.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Absolutely. And maybe that leaves a final thought for you, our listener. How do these virtues from if actually resonate with your life, with the challenges you face today?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, what feels particularly relevant. And are there maybe aspects that feel, well, different or maybe even outdated when viewed through a 21st century lens?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Definitely something to ponder. Thanks for joining us for this deep dive.

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Join us next time on Stay Lit for more explorations into English literature.